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Peter Gottlieb: Did you know them as a, as a young man?
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Benjamin B.: We grew up together. We grew up together. Sure. Grew up
together. Gottlieb: How did it come to be that you all came up here
together? Benjamin B.: Well, two of us come one month and a couple of
monthsm two more came, you know, another came, that make three. Yeah. We
three didn't come the same day, same week or month. Yeah.
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Gottlieb: You-- had you all left South Carolina together, gone up to
Wilmington or-- or two of you at least?
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Benjamin B.: Two of us went to Wilmington.
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Gottlieb: Uh huh. How did you-- Did you make the choice to move about the
same time together, or did you make it together?
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Benjamin B.: Me and him? Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.: Because why he--
This particular fella, Wilkin Nelson. He had a cousin in Wilmington. Yeah,
no, aunt in Wilmington. Well, the other fella didn't. Yeah. So we went
there and I forgot now where he went. Anyhow, we got together. Yeah. He
come up a month later. Pittsburgh. I mean, to Homestead.
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Gottlieb: Are any of these men still around here? Or have they moved, have
they moved on?
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Benjamin B.: Dead. No. One of them, Wilkin, one I was talkin' about, he's
down in Durham, North Carolina.
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Gottlieb: Did they, did a lot of those other people from South Carolina
settle down here like you did or did most of them go off--
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Benjamin B.: Go different places. Different places. Yeah. Do you all it in
a place like that.
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Gottlieb: Were they staying at Mrs., Mrs. Carpenter's with you when you
first came to--
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Benjamin B.: Two of us stayed, but the other fellas stayed right up the
street from us. Yeah, the three of us. You know, the other side of the
street was too crowded and they took him but four doors up the street from
us, you know. You know.
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Gottlieb: All that part of town is gone now, but. Benjamin B.: Yeah, gone.
Gottlieb: Do you remember when they started to tear it down?
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Benjamin B.: Yeah. Believe, end of the war. I came down end of the war, I
say at least five. Every time I been there.
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Benjamin B.: That's with, all that place down there must be new mills. New
bridge was-- wasn't there? You know, through the mill like most of them.
Most days, you know. Check it out. Third Avenue and _____[??]. But the
mills are all of that now. I had build that down with building pressure.
They go by the mill so I retire, I remember one [??].
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Gottlieb: Did, uh-- did people who lived up in this part of town, used
to-- used to look down on people who lived down in the ward?
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Benjamin B.: Lot of 'em. Lot of 'em. Many of 'em did, lot of 'em.
Gottlieb: There was never any particular end to that?
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Benjamin B.: No, no, there was no trouble, you know. Just like they was a
little better that way. Yeah. That's-- and that's any part of the country
now.
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Gottlieb: Um, was it everybody that--?
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Benjamin B.: And I mean that, the white and black. Gottlieb: Yeah.
Benjamin B.: Yeah. I knew that I was in. Yep.
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Gottlieb: Were there any certain parts of Homestead where-- that were kind
of segregated places for Black people to live when you came up here?
Benjamin B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: There were?
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Benjamin B.: Yeah, well.
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Benjamin B.: Was-- Not too many Black living up in this part of town. A
few, but not too many. But. Most of them was down below. Course, lot of the
white down there. Lot of them down, whites down there with Blacks. People
up here kind of look down on them. White and brown. Tell it like it is,
white and Black. But there was more of them than there is Black.
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Gottlieb: Was it everybody's ambition that live down the ward, to come up
here sometime?
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Benjamin B.: Not too much. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.: But see, they--
got white and Black. They go down at night. Daylight, they don't loaf down
there. Go night, at night, you know. Roam around. See? Like daylight they
up here. Just it, you know. Yeah. You know, but they couldn't fool us, you
know? You know, we know. Sleeping around, you know. Yeah.
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Gottlieb: There was a lot of it going on down in the ward at night.
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Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. That's why they come down there. Yeah, that's
why they come down.
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Gottlieb: Uh, now I remember a couple of things I wanted to talk to you
about. Do you remember the-- The recreation center that Nelson was in
charge of that that the company built? They called it a-- Benjamin B.:
Community.
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Benjamin B.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Fifth Avenue? Gottlieb: Yeah.
Benjamin B.: Sure.
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Gottlieb: Did they-- did-- Did many people used to hang out around there?
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Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, indeed. Yeah, I'm for one. Yeah.
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Gottlieb: What, what kind of things would-- would they have for, uh--
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Benjamin B.: Well, uh, boxing, playing pool, checkers and whatnot, you
know, that was going on down there. Yeah. Then you have that, yeah.
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Gottlieb: Was that-- Was that center just for Black men? Was it-- Or did
white men come there, too?
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Benjamin B.: No, was, they had two, now. They had one for the white. One
for the Black. Yeah. Gottlieb: How long did that last? Benjamin B.: Not too
long after-- After--
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Benjamin B.: Christmas. I came down and-- at the mill and all that. Throw
it out. Gottlieb: So that's when it all--
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Gottlieb: So you didn't have any white men coming through the--
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Benjamin B.: No, not, you know, because we were not.
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Gottlieb: You-- Can you tell me about the other kinds of work that Nelson
would do? He was in charge of this center. He would-- he would also be-- he
would also be in charge of transportation.
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Benjamin B.: Right.
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Gottlieb: Did he have any other kinds of jobs?
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Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] Not that I knew of. No. Other than
preach.
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Gottlieb: Did-- Did the people like him? Do people-- Benjamin B.:
[simultaneous talking] Yes, indeed.
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Gottlieb: Respect him? Benjamin B.: Yeah, they respected him.
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Gottlieb: Did they look to him for help when they needed help?
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Benjamin B.: Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
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Gottlieb: Um. You used to go watch the Homestead Grays?
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Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Lost 15 men, oh yeah. Oh yeah.
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Gottlieb: Did you like sports?
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Benjamin B.: From then, I like it from when I was down home, baseball,
football and all that. I wasn't about it. But baseball, I grew up under
that. Yeah, I played-- played ball up here since I've been up here on the
team called the Red Legs, colored fellas organize a team. I played ball up
here.
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Gottlieb: Did they have-- did they have baseball games between different
departments of the mill?
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Benjamin B.: No, far as I don't know. Gottlieb: Did they have anything
organized like that? Benjamin B.: No. Nothing I know of. Gottlieb: Can you
tell me something about the baseball
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Gottlieb: team that you played on, how-- how it was organized and wo
played on it?
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Benjamin B.: Oh, well, now, this was-- fella by the name of Timothy
Williams. Who-- preacher after that. He had organized a team called the
Homestead Red Legs.
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Gottlieb: Was that during the same time that the Grays were? Benjamin B.:
Yep, during the same time.
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Gottlieb: Did you use to play other teams?
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Benjamin B.: No, just only one.
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Gottlieb: So you wouldn't go to other places like Braddock or someplace to
play a team there?
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Benjamin B.: Yeah. Yeah, we travel. Oh, that's what you mean? Gottlieb:
Yeah. Benjamin B.: Yeah, we. We wasn't that up, you know, but in that
category, all in our category. Yeah. We went around. Oh yeah. Mhm.
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Gottlieb: Were these-- were these teams made up just of Black men?
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Benjamin B.: Yeah. Mhm.
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Gottlieb: Do they, do they have--
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Benjamin B.: They have Black men, yeah. But we play white. You know what I
mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Gottlieb: Did they-- Do they have-- Well, let me ask you this. These
weren't any kind of semi-pro teams or anything. Benjamin B.: No, no.
Gottlieb: You didn't play for money.
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Benjamin B.: Sandlot. No. Sandlot.
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Gottlieb: Just did it for fun. Benjamin B.: Yeah, that's right.
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Gottlieb: Um. And did they have teams in all the different towns around
here? Benjamin B.: Yeah.
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Benjamin B.: Rankin, Braddock, Munhall, right across the street there.
Munhall. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
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Gottlieb: Do you remember any-- any of the other men who used to play on
the Red Leg?
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Benjamin B.: Well, they all of them dead. Yep. All of them dead. Yep.
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Gottlieb: When did-- you have regular time to got together to practice
play games? Benjamin B.: Mhm. Mhm.
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Benjamin B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Can you tell me about what--
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Gottlieb: Like, what days? I mean, this kind of details--
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Benjamin B.: Well, sometimes when we off practice, maybe right now, in the
evening, something like that. We practice quite a bit _______[??] Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Was there a place across the river before they built the bridge
where there were baseball fields? Walter Harris-- You know Walter Harris.
He told me there was-- that when they built the bridge, they filled in a
lot of land over there and there. But before they had done that, they used
to be places over there where you could play-- play ball.
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Benjamin B.: It was. It was. I wasn't playing then, but I remember.
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Gottlieb: You know, when you would go to the Grays game, uh, the, a whole
bunch of people would go together> Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. Gottlieb: Can
you tell me what it is, was it like a big game, or--?
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Benjamin B.: Yes. When Homestead Grays gonna play the Baltimore Black Sox
and different. Oh, yeah-- Yes, sir. Gottlieb: Can you tell me, like,
where-- where the games were played and-- Benjamin B.: Forbes Field.
Gottlieb: They were?
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Benjamin B.: Forbes Field.
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Gottlieb: Did you used to take food with you and to settle into the
afternoon?
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Benjamin B.: No. No. We didn't do that. You go, after the game, we go.
Just so, it's just like you're doing now. You know, go around popping up
like that. They didn't do that then, you know? Yeah, but you didn't get
nothing.
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Gottlieb: Did Black people come to watch those games?
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Benjamin B.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Gottlieb: Yeah, the Grays are a good team.
Benjamin B.: They were good. Yes, sir. I'm tell you, they were tough.
Gottlieb: Uh huh. Did a lot
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Gottlieb: of Black people from Homestead used to follow them?
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Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, indeed. Yeah. Gottlieb: So it was
a big thing to do, huh? Benjamin B.: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Why do you-- why do you figure that that Homestead of all the
different places in the United States was the place that was more or less
the capital of Black baseball?
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Benjamin B.: Well now I don't know. I really don't know. No. Because, of
course it might have been lot of 'em but you know, after I settled down, I
quit running, you know, state to state. I quit running and probably was
going the same way in other places. But, you know, I didn't participate in
it because I was a rambler. So I-- you know, when you're traveling, you
know. Yeah. Didn't settle down to do nothing, you know, but work, work. Go
out and get some money and I'm gone.
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Gottlieb: 'Cause it's my impression that Homestead was a little bit
different from lots of other places and that it did have this, you know, a
very good baseball team. Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] That's right.
Gottlieb: Had a lot of good Black jazz musicians.
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Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. That's right.
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Gottlieb: So I just wonderin' why it was Homestead and not--
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Benjamin B.: Well, they tell me way, way back yonder, Homestead was named
out of a family. Old man Homestead. That was his name then. Gottlieb: Oh
yeah? Benjamin B.: Yeah, that's what I learned that way back. Just like
Scranton. Scranton. Name after the Scrantons. You know, it used to be
Governor Scranton. They tell me Scranton name after that family. Well, they
tell me Homestead same way. And I was told that, you know, way back. Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Well. I really. I really can't think of anything else to ask you
about. Are there any things that have come to your mind that-- while we've
been talking that I haven't touched on yet with my questions, anything that
you remember? Anything that you can think that you used to do back then in
that time that you think might be helpful to me? Anything about-- anything
about the job, you do that, or what it was like to work in the mill?
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Benjamin B.: Well, someplace there in the mill was a little bit
discrimination, but not many. Not many. So few ain't even gonna talk
about.
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Gottlieb: Did you know about what would be going on in different parts of
the mill if you were in open hearth?
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Benjamin B.: No.
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Gottlieb: Just like people were workin' in completely different place.
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Benjamin B.: Right. Right. And I wasn't interested. They tell me what they
do and I tell them what I do. You know, talking, you know? Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Did most of the friends you had in the first years after you
came up, were most of them also working in open hearth?
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Benjamin B.: No, no. Spannin' different parts of the mill. Different parts
of the mill. Gottlieb: Do you remember which parts? Benjamin B.: Plate
mill, general labor and whatnot. Yeah, some janitor, you know.
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Gottlieb: So they-- So when they bring people up on transportation, they
just put them wherever they're needed?
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Benjamin B.: Where they need them. That's the way it was, wherever they
need them. Yeah, that's the way it was. Yeah. Spread them out, you know.
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Gottlieb: Were there lots of Black men though, being employed in-- in open
hearth?
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Benjamin B.: Yeah. Sure. Oh yeah.
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Gottlieb: Do you remember-- do you remember were there-- when you were--
when you first came up here and first working in the mill. Were there
men-- were there Black men who had the very highly skilled positions in the
mill? Benjamin B.: Of course. Yeah. Plate. Gottlieb: Yeah.
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Benjamin B.: They had to try to get me down the leader, yeah. That's what
they want.
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Gottlieb: And they had those jobs when you first came on?
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Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed.
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Gottlieb: Had they been working-- Had those men working here a long time?
Benjamin B.: Yeah.
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Benjamin B.: You had to get them jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Had to work up to it.
Gottlieb: Did you know any
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Gottlieb: other men personally who had jobs here like roller or ______[??]
or--
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Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. Shearman, whatnot. One of my friends livin' now.
Gottlieb: You think __[??] want to? Benjamin B.: That's right. That's
right. You know, you must have been there. Gottlieb: Yeah, I talked to him.
Benjamin B.: Yeah, yeah. He's one of them. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.:
Yeah.
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Gottlieb: So he had been there for a pretty long time. Benjamin B.: Yeah.
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Benjamin B.: Yeah. He's a personal friend of mine. Yeah. Gottlieb: He's a
nice man too. Benjamin B.: Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Well, uh, I think that, uh. I'll just shut the machine off now,
if, uh. If you-- If you think of anything more that-- That you--
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Benjamin B.: I think we've about covered everything. My recollection, I
think we just think about it. My memory seemed to have moved bright today.
And it probably this is business, you know, probably. I'm thinking more,
you know, a whole lot of time, you know, show off what you know. But I
enjoyed it very much.
