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James Robinson: There were some other activities that took place behind
the scenes that made the union workers say that there was gonna be more
than marching. I don't think Harvey and these guys ever understood that. I
don't think that-- I've never said that. And so there was another coalition
of a few of us who met and said that there had to be some other things done
to make the unions-- And I'll say this, for instance, there was a group of
young men who went downtown and blew out every window in Kaufmann's,
Gimbel's-- every major store, just blew out the windows and said it and
called in to the police and told them this is why it was done and it would
continue to be done. I know that happened. That happened. There were people
at the march who didn't march but stopped traffic. Bought automobiles,
blocked up tunnels. I mean, this had nothing to do with the Black
Construction Coalition. Michael Snow: Right. Right. Robinson: This was
another little group. I never said this, but somehow Mugsy said that-- that
with me, they felt that my line stretched a little further than some of the
people who were involved in the march.
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Michael Snow: Meaning that they felt your-- your access to the community
or your involvement in other things--
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Robinson: [simultaneous talking] My influence went a little further than
just around the Black Construction Coalition. And that I could be
responsible for a whole nother thing. I would walk out of my house. There
was a gray car that followed me everywhere I went, every day. The guy
waved. He followed me. I'd go to a restaurant, he'd wave and me and John
Long and Father O'Malley. And they were absolutely right. Now, these are
guys who never marched. They weren't allowed in the circle of the Black
Construction Coalition. You see, the Black Construction Coalition could
only go so far. But these were people who had another way of bringing union
people to the table. That's never been said. Snow: Okay.
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Snow: So the man in the-- in the gray car who waved-- was this police
surveillance or this was someone from this other--
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Robinson: Unmarked car. Unmarked. Snow: Oh. Robinson: Then on top of that,
the suburban-- white suburban women played a tape and I heard it. And they
were fairly close. They played a tape and the General Presbyter and John
Galbraith from Westminster Presbyterian Church let me hear it. They said
that I had a straight line to China-- Mao Tse Tung. They came down in
Manchester and demonstrated because the presbytery was funding the
recreation center, which was then going on, and stood out in front. These
women, these white women, these white suburban women, this was all going on
while all this other stuff was happening. They felt that I was a communist
and felt that the presbytery should have a--a trial to defrock me. And went
back in the books to have what they called a, uh, what do you call it-- was
one of those trials. A-- I had one of those. I had to stop and think about
it, that I should be tried. But the General Presbyter. Dr. Bill Rushaw [ph]
A friend-- he's not--We don't have a bishop. But that guy saw what was
going on, and he really protected me in every way, shape or form and stood
up for me because he saw me at the leadership role. He saw that I was able
to keep people in because Nate, there's no way in the world-- Bird and I
brought a respectability to the marches. There was a respectability there.
I have nothing against Nate, but Nate was a-- you know, he talked a lot,
but the respectability came with the NAACP and a minister.
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Snow: I was laughing earlier over the idea of these women--
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Robinson: [simultaneous talking] I'm trying-- I'm trying to get-- I'm
trying to put-- Snow: Right. Robinson: I spent a long time. I'm giving you
a lot of information.
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Snow: I was laughing earlier about the idea of these women holding almost
a heresy trial, but--
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Robinson: That's what I'm saying. They wanted to have a heresy trial me.
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Snow: But it's still-- it can take up so much time defending it. And the
legal--
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Robinson: Well, they were mad. They were angry. They were-- they were
angry that the money that was being used, that I was making kids make
firebombs. Somehow they got the thing of the windows being broken downtown
and all of that, it got-- it got-- somehow it got connected to the North
Side and me and these children. And it was always that I was teaching
children tactics on how to make firebombs because those-- those windows
were broken out with firebombs. Snow: Oh, were they? Robinson: Oh, yeah. It
was all firebombs. And two of the kids got burned very badly and we took
them to the doctors. One kid to this day, we laugh. We kind of laughed
about it. He didn't know how to do what he was doing, that--that was not--
But those were the things that were going on.
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Snow: Did you find that that-- that the city and the union especially
responded more quickly after that incident?
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Robinson: I think that the head of the unions wanted to resolve the
whole-- I think the head, the top people at the unions and the city
certainly wanted to resolve it. Barr was good. Mayor Barr was extremely
good. I have, uh, quotes him [??] and so was the-- Craig. Craig. I forget
his--
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Snow: David Craig.
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Robinson: David Craig was extremely good. Very brave man. He's a
Presbyterian, by the way. Very-- understood what was going on, understood
what was going on. That could have really been a bad situation had it not
been headed off because there were some other people who really didn't want
to do some other things.
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Snow: Right. Well, and I understand from articles in the alternative
papers that when Barr left office and Craig left office-- I think if I've
got my timeline correct, that the march across the bridge was-- that the
police violence was under Superintendent Slusser.
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Robinson: That's right. Slusser was-- Slusser was bad news. He was a
racist from his heart. He was-- he was bad news. The guardians at that time
with-- were good. Luckily, they were around the-- You know, it could have
been-- It could have been-- it could have been much uglier. But Barr was
good. Barr-- But North Side had a lot going on. There's a lot going on. But
as I'm saying-- but as I'm saying, there were other people who were doing
other things. Snow: Right. Robinson: While all this was going on. And I'm
telling you, it was not-- It was not Blacks who were the most radical. It
was a-- it was a small-- well, it-- well, it was a mixture. 1 or 2 of us.
It was a-- there was a small group of whites. Women. Who did some things.
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Snow: How did you view their actions? I'm thinking back from my own
experiences when the Klan came in 1997, I think it was. There was a group
that was going to come in of white radicals who go around the country
provoking violence between the Klan and civil rights demonstrators.
Robinson: Mm. Right. Mm-hm. Snow: And I was just wondering if you felt like
you were being pushed too far by this, these outside agitators?
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Robinson: 97 I wasn't too--
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Snow: Right. But I'm talking-- I'm just saying-- Was it analogous back
that these white radicals were pushing too far and interfering too much?
Did you feel that-- Robinson: As far as Klan? Snow: No. As far as the Black
Construction Coalition back in your day?
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Robinson: Oh, well, I'm trying to follow your--
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Snow: Sorry, I'm confusing the train of thought. I'm confusing myself. I'm
trying.
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Robinson: I'm trying-- [laughs] --to figure out where you're headed
there.
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Snow: I was just saying, you told me that back in the Black Construction
Coalition-- Robinson: Right. Snow: --while it was organizing-- Robinson:
Right. Snow: --there were these white female radicals.
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Robinson: There were some. Yes. Yes.
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Snow: Some. That were taking matters even further.
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Robinson: Right. Snow: Poten-- Robinson: They were giv-- There's money.
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Snow: And--
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Robinson: There was a-- personal things that were being done that they
did. And I'm just naming one of them.
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Snow: And I was just wondering if--
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Robinson: This was never brought to the--to the attention of anybody.
Snow: Okay. Robinson: And they in turn linked up with another little small
group of Blacks who were not going to march, felt their marching wasn't
going to do it. There were some other things that were going on. I don't
think I'm a fox. And these people knew that. The NAACP-- is this going on
record?
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Snow: If you need to put part of it off record, we can.
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Robinson: The NAACP had a role. But during those days, many of us in the
church wondered if the church could help bring about justice, you know. And
I had a hard time at that time figuring out whether or not I could be both
Black and Presbyterian. And that's before I really got into some other
areas. And I had a hard time figuring that out. But if it hadn't been for
the likes of-- Of Bill Rushaw [ph] and some strong white leaders in the
church, in the Presbyterian Church. Presbyterian Church is different now
than it was then. It's much different, much-- too-- very conservative now.
But in those days, many of us were reading stuff, you know, and I was
listening to Malcolm X and I was listening to--reading Bonhoeffer,
Niemöller over in Germany. I was reading all that stuff. My thinking
theologically was changing very radically, you know, from a Billy Graham
type of ministry to a-- to a different thing. And this is even before I
even got into Selma. And I'm thinking pretty much, where is it? But-- but
anyway, I was-- I was thinking. I was changing radically because I was very
conservative. I'm still conservative theologically-- Snow: Right. Robinson:
--But my thinking then was changing. And, you know, I was beginning to
wonder, you know, even then whether all this marching-- you know, it was
going to pay off and these people weren't going to give up nothing.
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Robinson: They had the power and it was all about power. You know, and
when you're powerless, you can't-- You can't achieve nothing. And you're
not going to bring anybody to the table to make them negotiate with you by
marching. After a while they'll say, Well, you can march until your head
falls off. I'm not going to give you nothing. I'm not going to give you
anything. And--and I could see that. You know, and-- and the young Black
kids in Manchester said, you know, I ain't marching no damn place. And they
were ready to do other things. And then there were other people who were
willing to give a few nickels and a few dollars to be able to help them do
some other things other than what was going on. And I don't think anybody
paid any attention to this. I never saw anything in the paper about what
happened downtown. I never saw anything that was connected to that about
the mall down there, which is no longer there on the other side of the
China Wall, on the thing, all being burned down, I don't think that was
identified with the marchers, but it was. Snow: Hm. Wow. Robinson: It
was--it was--there was a--you know, it was.
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Snow: And had you decided not to pursue going through the Human Relations
Commission and trying lawsuits and going through the Equal Opportunities
Commission federally?
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Robinson: I don't think--I don't think anybody want to do that. Snow: No.
Robinson: I think that is too late. I didn't-- I, I think it had to be
settled at a much higher level. Snow: I see. Robinson: And it was settled
at a much higher level. The city had to be drawn in and the feds had to be
drawn in. And that's how it was settled. The federal-- the feds ended up
really in Washington, D.C., and I got involved. They got-- they really got
involved because it was really getting out of hand. It could have escalated
into something ugly. Uh, am I getting-- Am I bringing it? Snow: Yes.
Robinson: Okay. It's just --
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Snow: [simultaneous talking] It's specific enough to get information
that's not in the papers. Robinson: --been a while. Yeah. Snow: I was just
wondering if you could comment on how successful this-- the Black
Construction Coalition was in getting jobs for the construction?
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Robinson: Yeah, that's a hard one to determine. It was--
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Snow: I know.
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Robinson: Piecemeal. It wasn't much.
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Robinson: Which, can you say was better than nothing. But the unions are
still pretty much the same. I can't see much-- I can't see-- I haven't
followed the unions, but there know I think there was something like 1200
jobs or something. I can't remember the agreement, but it wasn't anything
magnificent.
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Snow: Is your sense that-- Let me back up. Salodin and the African
American Cultural Workers Union-- I think I might be getting that acronym
wrong-- were angry over the small number of-- Robinson: Mm-hm. Yeah. Snow:
[simultaneous talking] African Americans--
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Robinson: They had a right to.
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Snow: --employed on the building of Heinz Field and PNC Park.
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Snow: Is it your sense that the numbers employed went up for a time after
the the marching season in the early 70s and then--
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Robinson: There wasn't much. Snow: --fell off?
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Robinson: There wasn't any pressure brought on it. There wasn't-- No, it
was unfair. It wasn't right. They're absolutely right.
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Snow: Had there been a time, though, in the 70s when it was better in
terms of employment and then it's just--
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Robinson: I think the-- I think the issue was brought out. I think the
whole issue was brought out much stronger. It was-- And if you want to
measure it, that 70s had a much better-- impact on making the city aware.
It just wasn't followed-- Just wasn't followed through. We just sort of
left it. We didn't-- we didn't continue to follow through on it. We left it
and went into other areas of work. That's what happens, you know, you bring
it to its peak and then you leave it. You think that the issue is solved
and it's not solved. It never has been solved. But Saleh-- what's difficult
for Saleh being where he is now, though. See, it's different than when
you're a community leader and when you're respectable and you're City
Council. It's-- it's-- it's a whole different, you know. People only yield
to power. Power against power. People are not going to give up anything.
It's all about money.
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Robinson: Unless you, uh. You have a hand to be able to bring it out. Few
people gain from it, but the masses don't. The masses of Blacks still are
underemployed. Under-addressed. That's what we're trying to do here. It's--
got a whole group of people who--Who--who--Who are out of work, unemployed,
going to jail. It's a-- you know, it's just. You know, it's just-- Don't
know if I'm answering the question here. But it's-- So as far as what
happened back in the 70s, a few things happened that were never followed
up. But as far as this down here-- you see, it's changed too. The whole
area has changed with drugs and money. Young kids, they don't have to work.
You know, now it's a whole different thing. A lot of kids don't want to
work. They don't have to work. That's one piece of the pie. But then
there's a lot of people who do want to work who-- who are not going to be
put on, you know, in the unions. But there's no pressure. Not like there
was in the 70s. Not the kind of every day up in your face kind of part. I
don't even know if that would work anymore. I don't know. I just-- I don't
know. I don't-- I don't know. Because all I-- all my family always said we
were going to do-- we're going to take a small piece of the turf, and start
with kids at a very early age. Education is the answer, and that's it.
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Snow: When did you get into that?
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Robinson: Uh.
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Robinson: We said that, I guess. Hmm. I don't know. I guess after. After a
while? I don't know. After all the dust cleared, the 70s. The 70s. Late
70s. The late 70s.
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Snow: So that's about when you founded Manchester Youth Development
Corporation?
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Robinson: Yeah. Yeah, around 70s. We just said, this is what we're gonna
do. Marching and all that is outdated. It's not gonna work. We're gonna
pick these kids and we're gonna try to bring 'em up. Get 'em in school.
Education is the answer. That's when we said it. That's when we started.
That's-- Started it here.
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Snow: What made you say that marching was outdated?
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Robinson: Well, it was. I felt it was.
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Unidentified Speaker: Mr. Carr, would you please call extension 0?
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Robinson: After the 70s, it seemed as though that a lot of the young white
liberals went back into the institution, put on a three button suit, went
back to the institution, felt that the problem was solved. Didn't want to
spend anymore time on the racial thing. See, race is always a problem. It's
a matter of color. The whole thing is a matter of color. And, uh, and a lot
of the older guys got tired, too. They just said, well, you know. It just a
lot-- You know, the sticktoitiveness of the staying power after a while
leaves. You get older and you, you know, and you get tired. Struggling. So
the fire in your eyes, you know, after a while, you can always tell a guy
who's really on target. You can look in his eyes and see if the fire is
there, you know. And a lot of it, you know, the fire goes out, the light
goes out. You don't have that same desire. Snow: Right? Robinson: It just
does. You just get tired. And a lot of people just got tired. It was in
their heart that they knew that the problems are still there, but you just
don't have the wherewithal. And the torch was not carried from one
generation to another.
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Robinson: The young kids had a different agenda. They did not see that,
you know, and I don't know if it's our fault by not teaching them that, you
know, that racism was still alive, but it didn't happen. These kids. They
came off. They're different. They're a different group of people. You know,
they don't-- they didn't know the history of King and and Malcolm X and
Farmer and and all these people. They didn't know that. And I don't know if
the church is at fault. I don't know if you can blame anybody. It's just
that the light just-- flickered. Didn't [??] go burn out. There's a lot of
people who still had the desire, but it's just-- the masses just-- it was
not there to be able to continue the struggle as it intensified. King died
and, you know, was assassinated. And, you know, it just--it just was not
there. The next generation just didn't-- seem to have that-- have-- to have
that really desire. And I guess some of us can be put into the category of
not teaching and reminding kids, you know, of the injustice and all that.
You know, we maybe, maybe we can take some of the blame of not-- reviewing
history with them.
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Snow: Did you do that here last month for Black History Month?
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Robinson: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Snow: Good.
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Robinson: It's not a Black History Month special time. I think it's-- It's
fairly often, it happens. It goes on pretty well here. Snow: Okay.
Robinson: Kids are reminded.
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Snow: There are a lot of resources now that I think are fantastic for that
level of education.
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Robinson: Oh. But these are a different group of kids. Snow: Right.
Robinson: I see kids on a corner and it's sad. Drugs and money has done a
terrible thing to our youngsters. It's just-- it's pitiful out there on the
streets what you see these kids going through. You know, the whole thing
with the gangs and drugs. And it's a different world. It's a different type
of youngster.
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Robinson: You know.
Robinson: You know, crack babies and grandmother on drugs and mother on
drugs. And it's-- it's-- these children are different. They're a different
group of kids altogether than the kids from the 70s and the 60s. It's hard
being a youngster now. It's tough even in the Black world. Even in the
white world, white kids.
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Robinson: Have a tough time. It's tough. I feel sorry for kids now. It's
just rough-- the crap on TV, and you can settle an argument now by killing
somebody. You don't fight somebody, you know, you just wipe them out. Guns.
You don't fight nobody no more. You shoot them. Rage. [laughs] I mean, the
rage that you see in kids' eyes. Ooh, the anger. It's there. So, you know,
you're dealing with it now. You know, I've lived to see that. I've gone
through all that. You know, and the thing about it is, I was looking at Ray
Brown down there, the musician down at the Manchester Craftsmen's Guild.
He's 75 years old. He still has the same desire to play and he can play,
but he's surrounded himself with the two sidemen. The one boy looked like
he was about 12 years old and the other one looks like he's about 15, but
he still has-- he can still play. And he's not talking about what happened
back when he was with Oscar Peterson and way back then when he was younger.
He's bringing his skills to these kids. He's reminding them of the history
of jazz. And that's what my wife and I are trying to do. We're reminding
these kids and we're telling them, you have a chance in this world, even
though it is all this and don't get hung up on racism.
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Robinson: Don't get-- You can talk about that, you know, and I know all
that. But there's a bigger picture here. You can be whatever you want to be
in this country. And that's the message. And some of these kids come
through some very, very tough situations. Now we've seen 2 or 3
generations. We've had-- we have three generations of kids that we've seen
come through this place. We know the grandmothers and the mothers and now
the children that are here. So you tell them, you know, and show them by
actions. You can be-- you can be great. You can be whatever you want to be.
You know, the guy, Dixon, what's his name, is playing on Maryland's team.
You know, both his mother and his father died of drugs. Snow: Wow.
Robinson: And how good he is. I've seen kids come through here. One goes to
jail and the other one's a doctor, you know? So. But, but, but, but--but
this is what we said we were going to do. We were going to pick a small
piece of the turf, use education as a key, and that's it. That's what we've
done. Now, all the other stuff is history and we're still standing.
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Snow: And you got all the grants to expand this-- this building into a
school?
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Robinson: That's right.
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Robinson: Mostly, mostly foundations. Put this place together.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:15.000
Snow: Had a lot of your civil rights connections and networking helped you
with the foundations?
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Robinson: It's made them know me. Snow: Right. Robinson: So that when my
name comes up and we go somewhere, they know what-- we have a track record.
They followed us and then--
