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Snow: You were saying about Corrigan pool?
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Patrick: Yeah, my eyes are particularly. I asked my ophthalmologist that I
have used the clear stuff in it and yeah, to my story. Since I'm the cool
person. This must have been '53, I guess. We cannot swim in Corrigan pool.
I don't know. I don't know. NAACP gets a word. They get me. Oh we're going
to swim in Corrigan pool. Damn. But before going into Corrigan pool, I went
to gym to Richard Jones who is by president--NAACP president. No, I should
say. Let me let me backtrack. Apparently before I came to town, I think--I
don't know when it was done. Richard Jones and NAACP had filed a suit
against the city about integrating Highland Park Pool. I don't know when
that happened. Snow: Okay. Patrick: But as I--what you would gather from
what I've said, you really can't integrate a pool by having a suit saying
you're allowed to go there. You got to actually go. Anyway, I don't know
when that happened, but Richard Jones had a suit against the city and he
was president of the NAACP because I've been told that David Lawrence, the
mayor, told him, you will never be a judge. The temerity of suing me. You
will never be--and he was never a judge. Lawrence could you know, he had
that kind of power. He could. You weren't. And Richard felt he ought to be
a judge.
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Patrick: He was smart. He was he knew he was smart. And it's terrible when
you are smart and know you are smart. At any rate, now to come back to
Corrigan, when I said, yeah, you're going to swim in Corrigan. I went to
Richard and said, Dick, we're going to swim in Parkland. I'm going to take
a group into Corrigan Pool on Sunday. And I think we ought to take some
police protection. He took me in to see John Kane, John J. Kane Hospitals.
Who was the chairman of the county commissioners chairman. He's a humble
fella, but a labor leader. He was, you know, Labor was God on those years.
It still is in some degree, but John J. Kane was the person chairman of the
county commissioners. Lawrence was mayor of the city. So those two ran the
city and county. Lawrence--I mean, John Kane, Commissioner Kane called in
Monk Ketchel. Monk Ketchel...K-E-C-H-E-L or K-E-T-C-H-E-L, who was his
superintendent of county police, called Monk in while Richard and I were in
his office and told Monk in our presence that I was going to be swimming in
the pool with the group on Sunday in Corrigan Pool. Now we had--we had
what's the little Black pool that was out there and Highland Park.
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Patrick: There was another Black pool where we had a great time. Blacks
gathered around that pool in the summer, had pictures around that pool and
what did they call it? What did they call it? What did they call it?
Because I remember lambasting the business and professional league because
they took their printing to the Black pool and they asked me back, Patrick
is ignorant. Anyway there was a Black pool, were we? Which was our pool,
and which was a lot of fun because you have Blacks, we have a lot of fun
when we were together. You know, we're sort of reserved when you're out,
you know, we really let go. We go [laughs]. At any rate, Monk Ketchel was
told to protect us. So Sunday, I gathered some kids in my car. Jack Burley.
You don't know Jack Burley. You don't know Tom Burley. You don't know. Tom
Burley is the chairman of the YMCA board there on South Avenue. He and his
brother and two or three other kids. Okay, kids, let's go. Let's go. You
want to go swimming? Yeah. Kids always want to go swimming. You know, on a
hot, sunny summer afternoon. Tell my wife I'm taking these kids swimming.
But they didn't tell their parents. And they didn't tell them where we were
going, nor that we were likely to have trouble. Because I figure if I, you
know, if I alert them, then they find an excuse.
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Patrick: Oh, God. I got up to the pool. Corrigan pool. We--here again
people left the pool. Why you do that? Why are you White folks
[unintelligble] You want to get that far away from us? Yeah. God. Then the
White boys started, you know, everybody left the pool and, you know, were
remarks made around that you hear, but you pretend you don't hear, you
know. So my kids realize what--what they were in. So they sort of crowd
around me and I'm sitting on the edge of the pool trying to look
nonchalant. And then the White kids start jumping into the pool. Whites
were sitting at the other end of the pool, the shallow part. We were
sitting in the, there was room in the--in the deep end, so the kids would
jump over us and to the water. Run...jump. Well, I'm getting frightened. I
think it was, it was the only time I ever remember being frightened.
Because I was certain--not certain but felt that something might happen.
These kids are going to finally, you know, you'll jump over, but then
you're going to hit us on your head or your shoulders. And then my kids
might, you know, you know, hit me and get away with it and.
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Patrick: I'm looking around. No. Where is Monk? You know. Where the hell
is he? Where is Monk? So finally I got off the--I left the kid sitting on
the ledge. I got in the water where I got the little [unintelligble],
enough for me to stand up. And first, I didn't want my kid to see how
frightened I was because I was shaking. I didn't want them to see my
shaking knees. They didn't know I was afraid, afraid for them. I knew if
they got hurt, I'd be run out of town. I've told the parents didn't know
that I was bringing their kids into danger, I thought, and getting to Monk
Ketchel, we were, you know, taking care of that part of it. But after I was
there and the kids kept jumping, finally, Monk came with a couple of his
policemen. What's going on here? What's going on? Well, that's settled
things. That kid stopped jumping and my kids then they wanted to leave. No,
we've got to stay in the water. You know? You can't just walk away now. So
we stayed in the water for and had a nice swim. I guess. And finally, we
left and didn't have any trouble leaving, you know, because the policemen
were evident now because you know, Monk's job's on the line if we get hurt,
Kane's word is to Richard Jones.
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Patrick: You know that. So he's conscious of that. So we didn't have any
problem, you know, maybe remarks, but no...getting back in the car. But I
never tried to get those kids to go with me again. I got then adults and I
started recruiting adults to go into the pool. And we didn't have any more
trouble that is nobody bothered us. And after that, [unintelligble]. But.
The--that--I presume that John Kane must have known about the suit that
Richard had against the city. I presume this. I never talked to Richard
about the suit. Nobody ever talked to me about the suit. I only heard that
there was a suit against the city and that Lawrence had made this threat
against him. And if there were a suit, it happened before I came to town,
and it would have happened then because it had been precipitated by what
had happened in '48 or '49. It may have been '49 or '50. I don't know
when--I know '48. And I know that Allan and and Jim Jordan tried again, and
at least I've heard. Would they have done it in '49 or '50? I don't know,
because when I started going in there, there was nobody going in the pool.
So but the suit would have--that, that would have been the genesis of the
suit, I suspect.
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Patrick: So that was--that--that was the story of the Corrigan pool. And I
guess I've never been back in Corrigan Pool. I've never been back in
Highland Park Pool. I think for five years, I didn't even drive by the
pool, you know, traumatic--I just--other things. But I just--I didn't
bother that. These other things that followed after that all as I've said,
everything else that I did, having made a name for myself, become
identified with civil rights, I'm Mister Civil Rights now. Sometimes I
didn't want to be Mister Civil Rights, but I'm Mrs [??] Civil Rights. But
now I get award after award, after award, after award because people
remembered that.
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Snow: You were then on the board of the Urban League or the NAACP or
both?
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Patrick: I was on the board of the NAACP. Interestingly, the Urban League
has never asked me to be on its board. Never. I've been asked to be a
member of a committee to help on a fund drive. I've been--I've been given
an award by the Urban League. I presume I'm assuming I'm too controversial
for what the Urban League stands for. Jim, not Jim, but um Leroy Irvis--I'm
told, and he has said it and you probably got it--run across it. Leroy
Irvis was working for the Urban League and had a group--boycott group
around Gimbels, you know Gimbels wouldn't hire or accept elevator
operators. They couldn't be--you couldn't be a clerk. All the damn
meetings I've been trying to get clerks in these department stores. What
the? [laughs] You know, the Black clerk [laughs] the Black clerk can wait
on you as well as the White clerk. The Black clerk can ignore you as well
as the White clerk. [laughs] But, oh, anyway, Jim, I mean, K. Leroy Irvis
said that he, he, as an urban leaguer, led this group in Toronto.
Gimbels--Gimbels has been gone now before you came to town--many years ago.
It was a--warehouse is now you know it's there. And he said the Urban
League--Urban director made him stop because the board members, the White
board had called and said, you know, you've got to get this away from here.
Well, how can you have me if that kind of mentality is on the Urban League
official? And I don't know whether it's still there, I do not know that,
except they get a lot of money from a lot of places and money controls.
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Patrick: And so I have never been asked to be on the Urban League board.
I've been on the NAACP board only. I was there for a good many years until
well, until I went on the school board. And I--they just took me off their
board. I was vice president under Charlie, Charlie Foggie. I was a member
on the ticket under Dick Jones. I was a vice president on the Charlie
Foggie--Bishop Foggie. Foggie died last year. I was a member on the--Harvey
Adams. So I never was president of the NAACP, but I helped keep NAACP
program going. Yeah. The NAACP is sort of, I think, has lost its focus
somewhat because it's you--you can't be accepting thousands of dollars from
companies for scholarships and then be in their face-up in your face
because you're not hiring Blacks. All the companies have a few Blacks
around now. You know, most of them have a token Black here and there. You
see, we have our briefcases downtown. And we--we are in some of the law
offices, but [chimes sound] in minimal numbers. I did a little bit of work
with NAACP when--getting on hiring. I see all of these--the well--the times
I was arrested, I was standing in front--of one of the times--in front of a
truck, keeping him from getting into a construction site, that big building
behind the Centre Avenue police station, because they were building up this
building, putting up this high rise public housing without a single Black
hired.
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Patrick: And I got a committee together and I told who was police chief at
that time. You're going to have to arrest me tomorrow morning because I
want to stop these trucks. I was there with my committee and I stood in the
way of that truck and I stopped it. Scared as hell now because I didn't
know if his foot was going to slip off the brake, but my committee was
right there with me on the side, you know, they weren't in the way of the
truck. But my point is, I was--we were concerned about hiring Blacks. And
we had meetings and a meeting with Stabile about his parking garage and so
on, about hiring Blacks. I mean, I met with some groups now, may be with,
may be with the United Negro Protest Committee or it might be with the--uh,
Arthur Holloway and what did, what did he call his group. Anyway, but we
confronted the establishment on this hiring business. You were in their
face. And we got promises. Now, the promises were not always kept. But the
point of what I was getting to was that I go--have you not been on Route 28
and gone from Etna onto Route 8. Snow: Okay. Patrick: Where they put
up--they put up a new bridge there now. Snow: Yes. Patrick: And I have to
go up there every day, er, twice a week I go. Not everyday I go. I used to
go twice a week because I go over to Allison Park to see my wife. She's at
a nursing home out there. And I used to get ticked off every time I'd get
there because I see about--I-- driving as fast as you can.
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Patrick: I would say at least 10 or 12 White men working on that whole
complex and not a single Black. And this is state money. And we have a
commitment from the state that they're going to--not going to do this now.
And I said to myself, if I had the energy, I'd get the committee together.
I'd get--we'd be in the face of somebody. But I said, well, listen, now I
must be--I don't have the energy for that anymore. I can't--I can't get a
committee and infused enthusiasm, as I once did, and then get out to be the
leader, as you must do. You've got to, if you're going to lead, you've got
to be able to lead. And now Tim is doing a lot of stuff, he's, you know, he
he's in the paper a lot. But--and I support him. I've supported him when he
ran and I supported him every time he and I'll support him next time when
he runs. But. I'm not sure--rather, I am sure that there are pockets around
the city where you need an NAACP in people's faces. Because I saw this and
I said, and I go down Route 65 to Sewickley because my son lives in
Sewickley. And I saw them working on the highway. Never a Black was in that
group of workers. I go to the airport. I've gone with some frequency
because I'm on the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission and have
to go to Harrisburg. [Telephone rings]
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Snow: You mentioned-- Patrick: Huh? Snow: You mentioned that you also
integrated movie theaters and lunch counters. Patrick: Yeah. Snow: I was
wondering how much opposition there was there.
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Patrick: Oh, I don't, not, not movie theaters, but, uh--bowling. Snow:
Bowling? Patrick: Bowling alleys--there were considerable. The one, one
restaurant that sticks in my mind was an Italian restaurant. Italian again.
You're not Italian, I hope. Snow: No. Patrick: I don't want to--I'm not
insulting you--just the way you folk are. [laughs] Larimer and Meadow. [ed.
note: Patrick is referring to Larimer Avenue and Meadow Street, both in the
Larimer neighborhood] There was an Italian restaurant, and I received word
from NAACP that they were not serving Blacks. As I remember the message,
Black teachers from Lincoln School, which was, well, maybe 5 or 6 blocks
away from--Lincoln School is at Lincoln and Frankstown [ed. note: Patrick
is referring to Lincoln Avenue and Frankstown Avenue], Lincoln and--Meadow
and Larimer would have been, what, maybe 5 or 6 blocks away? Anyway, they
wouldn't serve Blacks. So I got a committee together and I had, by this
time, John Golightly. You know, John Golightly was working for the
Post-Gazette. I don't know where we hooked--hooked up, but somewhere we got
hooked up, NAACP I guess, he and his wife, Gladys. Then I got a couple of
women and I don't remember now just the names. But anyway, we decided we
would see--test this. So we went in. The plan was, he went in with his
wife, White couple. They were seated and he made his order. Then we went in
my--with my two Black women, and the woman says, [speaks in an Italian
accent] you know, I think we close. I think, we close. I said, [speaks in
an Italian accent] I think we stay till everybody leave. [laughs]
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Patrick: So she walks up and down, walks, sees the manager. And I'm not
moving. And John--John and Gladys are over here watching. Watching. Anyway,
John is somebody you ought to know. And he lives on, I think on Braddock
Avenue. John Golightly. He's retired now and he has all the ailments of age
as I--[laughs]--as I don't have. Any rate, he and Gladys watches while they
won't serve to us. Anyway, she goes into the front part, which is a bar and
talks to somebody and then come back finally and took, and took our order.
We just wanted pizza--I had never had pizza. Not that I disliked it just--
Of course she brought the pizza out on the--on the hot pan. And I'm about
[unintelligble] you bring my pizza and [unintelligble] a plate. And the
woman said, Reverend Patrick, that's the way they serve it--that's the way
they serve! [laughs] God. You know I'm stupid. [laughs] I don't know. So we
ate and I--I sent word back to NAACP, you know, you can tell the folk that
they can eat there. And I don't know whether they went to eat there, but I
know that if you persisted, then they would have--they would serve you,
that I was testing on that respect. Where the pizza joint is in East
Liberty now, Baum Boulevard. You know, across there was as--I think there
was what we call the auditorium, bowling alley.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:24:56.000
Patrick: I heard that they wouldn't serve Blacks, African-Americans. And I
got a group together. We went there. The man says, Sorry, all our alleys
are reserved. Oh, no. First, we want to know, what do you want, ten or
ducks? I did't know the difference between a ten or a duck. A ten is a big
is the big one and the duck is a little thing. I didn't know there was a
difference. I thought, we'll take them. What do you want ten or duck? We'll
take them. [laughs] I'm bluffing my way, I didn't--because he and I talk
over here. Maybe I would have, my group [??] could have helped me out and
see what I had gone over to talk to him because I wanted to set up the
alleys. Well, I'm sorry but all the alleys are taken. I said, okay, we'll
sit here until--and we'll take the alleys until--until when your group
comes and we will let them have them. Well, I got [unintelligble]. But then
we sat on the bench and we sat. Well, apparently your group's not coming.
We'll take them until your group gets here, and then we'll let them, well,
of course, the group never came. We got the alleys. He finally had to give
in and give us the alleys--them whites are--it had about 12 alleys. It was
a big auditorium, so we were able to. DeLuca bowling alleys, which is over
the Keystone building there on you know, or--off Highland Avenue or--or you
know, where the lot is, where the--it used to be a plumbing place-- Snow:
Yes. Patrick: --all that upward above it was the--was the bowling alley.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:26:21.000
Patrick: They wouldn't serve and I got the word. Okay, we'll check on
that. Went there that night and with my committee, they--the boys set for
us--set up for us. No problem. Okay, well, now it's sort of strange, you
know? What about the next? I think it was on Saturday and the White boys
wouldn't. All White boys, right? All White people in there wouldn't set up
for us, you know. This was before the automatic pin set, you know. Alleys
nowadays, they don't have don't have boys standing up, setting up. Well, we
had tipped them the day before--really we tipped them too much. I was so
grateful they had, you know, that they had served that day. But they walked
away. As soon as we got to the alley, they walked out. So then I called the
manager. He said, Well, nothing I can do because they're not my hirees.
They come off the street and make a few bucks. They'll set up and I can't
make them. So then I George--I called George Culberson. George Culberson
succeeded Chris Motes--Civic Unity Council had become what, fair employment
practice or committee on human relations. I think it's fair employment
practice and occupational relations. George Culberson was the fair
employment practice.
00:26:21.000 --> 00:28:06.000
Patrick: I called him and waited there until he came and he talked with
the manager and he he told me he agreed that they really you couldn't
nothing could do about it because these were not hirees. These kids were
setting up to make a few bucks. You'd stop in and you set up and you--so
they don't want to set up, there was nothing he could do. So we saw we
couldn't do it. So we did, we did, we lost that battle. You know, we
didn't--I didn't ever went back. It's well, it's closed now. Of course,
that whole building is unoccupied now. But I remember that...there was
nobody saying anything to us. We didn't [chimes sound] get any, any, any.
Why are you people here? Look at those niggers. Nothing. No comments
either--on either evening. People look at you. They wouldn't speak to you.
But I didn't mind that. There was never any attempt to, to be--to molest us
in any way. But if you don't--if you can't set up, then you, you don't have
to do all of that. You just--word must have gone out, I see that you
shouldn't have been setting up for those Blacks, so the next time we showed
up, they wouldn't set up for us. So those are the kinds of things which
sort of came in afterwards and so. Yeah, afterwards.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:30:21.000
Patrick: I remember going in to see, as I said, Stabile about hiring
Blacks. And, you know, he runs the parking garages, Stabile. And he
promised to put some Blacks on. I see Blacks there now, I didn't see any
Blacks for a long time. I don't for long. I don't know. But I can't
continually go. I remember going to see with the manager 16th floor of
Pittsburgh National Bank building. That was then and where the Lazarus
building is now. That was PNC headquarters. Way up, way up, way up. And
talking to him about tellers and he couldn't hire tellers and he finally
agreed to put on a teller and he put on a teller on his branch on the South
Side. We couldn't get the teller to [laughs] come to our meeting to tell us
what experience she had. She got it on her own. [laughs] You know, she was
convinced she'd gotten this job because of what her qualifications were.
Oh, man. What I've experienced in my lifetime. Yeah, but we at least we got
people hired. And no, it's not--it's not so much--it's--it's keeping that
sort of thing going, and you really kind of keep it going unless you, you
let it be known you're going to stay in their face. And and my point is,
Steven is not saying in their face about these kinds of things. He's saying
in their face, you know, Gammage. [ed note: Patrick is referring to the
1995 death of Jonny Gammage, a Black man who was killed by police at a
traffic stop in Pittsburgh's Overbrook neighborhood.] Well, Gammage is an
obvious case, Gammage, you know, policeman--police brutality, police
shooting us. You know, those whom they don't shoot, we shoot. So between
the two of us, we're going to wipe out a whole generation of our
youngsters. I don't know what--I don't know where we're going from here.
And I look at it and I--it saddens me because I said, I say I worked--
00:30:21.000 --> 00:31:05.000
Patrick: I worked so hard to get the school system integrated. We never
did get integration, but we got some desegregation buses all over the place
where you bus the White kids into Malayan school. Then you bus them right
out. You bus our kids into some place on the South Side and you bus them
right out. Desegregation, but not integration. And now we're getting more
as I read in one of the columns of the Courier this past week. We probably
have more segregated schools then we had when we were fighting about it.
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:25.000
Patrick: Pittsburgh, I look at Lincoln School, where my kids went, where
people were complaining about that restaurant. My kids went there. It was a
Black school and it's a Black, needy school now, you know. All of this, you
say what? What?
00:31:25.000 --> 00:32:25.000
Snow: Excuse me.
