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Snow: Before the tape stopped, you were talking about signing up for the
classical course and what it did for you.
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Patrick: Being in the classroom, but not really part of it. The teacher
not really paying any attention to...to us now, now that I think about it,
it was probably because there were never many of us in my classes, and
maybe because I was in the Academic, I don't know how the other classes
would have been, but. I. You know, I was a, well, I remember this teacher
and I don't remember his name, but I remember an algebra. Now, I don't know
the difference between X and Y in algebra, but I was in algebra and we were
having to go through the class, each one taking the next step of the
problem, solving the problem. And my turn came and I said so and so and so.
I said, Oh, no, no, wait a minute, so and so and so and so and so and so.
And the teacher said, You know, Patrick, you're a good student. So my image
of myself is that I'm a good student, not brilliant. There were some
brilliant young fellows in my class. There were smart fellows. But...I'm a
good student. That's the way I've thought of myself over the years. Now,
I've been in some classes where I've been, I've been brilliant. But that's
because I guess the competition was not that great. [laughs] But anyway, I
say all that to say that he is the only teacher that I remember ever
complimenting me on anything that I did.
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Patrick: And I--and I was. You know, I finished acceptably well, high
school. It was way back in '33, January '33 because we had two graduations
in those years, one in June, one in January. I'd finished in January '33.
And I--it seems to me either I was in honors or near honors in my class.
I'm not--I was not the brightest. Some fellow named AJ something or other
was a he's a bright guy. You could see--I could see that. And, and there
were--there were several like that. You know, they're always in
class--there's always some fellow who's brighter than you are. Of course,
there's some who are slower than you are, too. [laughs] Well, I--I--I don't
recall their names, but I finished pretty well. A good classical course.
And that was it. Um, January '33, I said in my yearbook, future medicine. I
don't know why I said medicine because there were only certain areas we
could go and you could go medicine, you go into the ministry, you go into
teaching, social work to some degree. But I didn't know anything else. I
just--I don't know why I said it because I had no way of knowing even all
these schools around Philadelphia. And it meant nothing to me. There's all
these colleges, meant nothing to me because I had no no entree to any of
them.
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Snow: When you said there were only so many areas into which we could go--
Patrick: What? Snow: You--you said there were only--there were only so many
areas into which we could go. What did you mean by we?
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Patrick: I mean Blacks. Blacks.
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Snow: That's what I thought.
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Patrick: Yeah. We got no kids that they can aspire to be anything. You
know what they--want to--want to be. But in those areas, if you want. You
want to be you could be a professional person for even here in Pittsburgh.
It wasn't until '38 that I could teach in the schools. The school didn't
allow Blacks, and it was not until about '50 or '59 that there was the
first Black principal. John Brewer was the principal of Miller School.
Gosh, he's a principal. But they had they had to be a legislative--a
legislative session on discrimination in the schools that finally opened it
up to Black teachers. And then we were, of course, assigned to the Black
schools, dare not teach any White kids, couldn't do that by any means. But
Philadelphia had Black teachers. And Black school. I finished what was
called Durham [chimes sound] Public School at 16th and Lombard. It was a
Black school and I had Black teachers. In another part of the South
Philadelphia I had I was in Childs school, which is I think at 17th and
Tuscan. And there were no Black teachers in that school, only White
teachers. But then we moved and I had to change schools when we moved. So
that's when I went to Durham. And from Durham I went to I went to Central.
Central High. Well. So I knew about teaching. I knew about Black teaching.
And of course, I went to a Black church. So I knew about a preacher and I
and I knew about Black doctors. So that's what I said. So if I if I had
been able to go on to college, then, you see, I would have gone on. I would
have probably gone on to medicine if I'd had the money and so on. Which I
didn't. So I didn't.
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Snow: Which church did your family attend?
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Patrick: The first African Presbyterian Church. It was organized in 1807.
And I have told us, my White friends, you know, we've been around in this
Presbyterian church a long time. We just got here yesterday. My church is
founded in 1807. Our denomination is organized as a denomination in 1789. I
said within 20 years we had founded a Black Presbyterian church. So we
didn't just come here, you know. What are you, a Baptist? I don't know.
I've been a Presbyterian all my life. Said I'm you know, I'm 80 plus years
old. I'm a Presbyterian. I've always been a Presby--my family, my parents,
are Presbyterian and so on. So we went to the First African Church and it's
still a viable congregation. In Philadelphia.
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Snow: I'll plead ignorance. I didn't learn that--I did not learn that
history until the article in the paper today. Patrick: What? Snow: I didn't
know that long history until the article in the--in the Post Gazette today
on the missionary Patrick: The article in the newspaper?
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Patrick: And it separated him from Garrison, who was the abolitionist. All
the abolitionist said, you know, let's let's slavery will gradually. We got
to get rid of it gradually. And he's saying, not neither God nor angels,
nor just men command you to suffer for a single moment. Therefore, it is
your solemn duty and imperative duty to use every means, both moral,
intellectual and physical, that promises success. If you must bleed, let it
all come at once. Rather die free man than live to be slaves. Let your
motto be Resistance, Resistance. Resistance. Well, I've liked that when I
came across that and I said, That guy, he's my kind of guy.[laughs] He's my
kind of guy. Golly. Reverend Henry Highland Garnet, a Negro
[unintelligble]. But Frederick Douglass, our great leader, and also Orville
[??], Garrison and others, separated themselves from him when he started
speaking like that because that was, you know, not the way to go. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. That's very good. Yeah.
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Snow: How active were your parents in the First African Church?
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Patrick: Not very active. Snow: No? Patrick: Yeah, they were. They joined
church and. Well, things got bad with us--the first half of it that is, by
and large was, I suppose, still is, at least in those days, as Presbyterian
here, as in those days were by and large, middle class. Well, you can't be
a middle class if you don't have a job. [laughs] You know you can't. You
can't. You really. You don't. You're not part of it if you're not able to
carry your share. Uh, so they didn't. They didn't stick with the church. I
stuck with it because it met a need for me. I liked going to church. I. I
enjoyed not merely the camaraderie, but strangely enough, I enjoyed the
religious services even when I went to college. Chapel was compulsory, but
I didn't find it onerous. You know, some of the kids were always
complaining chapel your own. Hey, mark me in when you go. When you walk in.
I know. I want to go to church, see what's going to see. So. And today I
still--I go to church every Sunday. Not because I'm just a pastor, but
because it gives the meaning and point to my life. But my parents were not
active.
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Patrick: Now, they they were active in the South. But the church we were
in, in both Adams Run and [??] Florida. As I look back on it, it was not a
middle class church. That is, the people were not professionals. Whereas a
large good number, when I say professionals, I mean they had regular jobs.
There were some schoolteachers at First African and there were Pullman
porters at First African. There were mail carriers at First African. Well,
that that is still a status not only symbol, but actuality in the Black
community. You well, you got a regular income and it's you know just to
live off and so. So when you say how active were they? They were not
active, but they weren't there. And all of us, you know, aspects. First few
months for a while. And then then I found I was the only one getting up,
going to church. And as I realized I got old and that it was. They couldn't
take that. And I do not I cannot blame them. You know, there was churches.
It is a class distinction and I guess in all organizations. So they were
not active in church.
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Snow: Before I forget how many siblings. How many brothers and sisters did
you have?
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Patrick: One brother.
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Snow: When and where did you go to college? When and where did you go to
college?
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Patrick: I went to college in September 1935. Lincoln University,
Pennsylvania. You know what? Lincoln? Snow: Yes. Patrick: He's part of the
state. Two and a half years after out of high school, I finally got into
college. Finished in '39.
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Snow: How did you decide upon Lincoln?
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Patrick: Well, I didn't. My pastor decided for me. I didn't know there was
a Lincoln. Yeah. You know, because I didn't come from an educated family.
My father and mother hadn't been to college. Public schools such as the
South had in those years. I told my pastor I wanted to be a minister. And
he said, All right, I'll make arrangements for you to go to Lincoln
University. And he did. And he took me up there on. And he gave the man a
check for $75 to register me. Now, $75 in 1935 is a lot of money. Not any
money today, but it's a lot of money back there. Then the man gave me--the
man being the old. He gave me a job on the campus and that started me off.
Year and a half later, he died. But I was on my way then. But I say I had
not been to Lincoln's campus. I've not heard about Lincoln. But here he
was, a graduate of the college and of the seminary, and I agreed I would go
to the college and I'd go to the seminary. By the time I was a senior, I
changed my mind about seminary [laughs], but I went to the college and got
a because I had had a solid academic education, I did well at Lincoln. I
was salutatorian only French stopped me from being valedictorian.
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Patrick: S'il vous plait! [laughs]. God, and not that I couldn't get it,
but because I taught Greek, I was the assistant to the Greek teacher at
Lincoln, because I knew Greek. You know, it came back to me as I got back
in school. But French. By this time I was really tired of languages and I
didn't do well in French so that instead of getting an A or B, I got a C, I
think it was, which pulled down my GPA, which went down. I became
salutatorian and [??] became a valedictorian. But my point is I did well
there and I had a lot of other beautiful, beautiful experiences. I was just
out there on Saturday for a board meeting. I'm still on the board at
Lincoln. I was I've been chairman of the board. I've been a member of the
board since '70, '72. I've been chairman of the board and I'm an emeritus
member of the board. We met this Saturday. We meet I'll be going back
probably in April for the for the April meeting. So that's that's where I
went. Lincoln University. It's the oldest, oldest school founded for the
education of Blacks of America, African-Americans, the oldest in America. I
understand there's one older in Nigeria. I don't know what. But this was
founded by a man named John Miller Dickey, who was a Presbyterian
clergyman.
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Patrick: Who felt he should do something about sending some Black
missionaries to Africa. And the school was founded in 1854. Excuse me. And
they called it Ashmun Institute, one of the first graduates. Ashmun.
Something happened to him. Then when Lincoln was assassinated, they changed
the name to Lincoln University in '66. So I went to Lincoln and I say the
Lincoln because there's a Lincoln in Jefferson City, Missouri. I'm talking
about the Lincoln. [laughs] Sure [unintelligble]. Snow: Yes. Oh, sure
[unintelligble]. Oh, and I had great years at Lincoln and I went there in
'35. And I, as I said, I finished in '39 and I--I enjoyed--here I was
manager of the debating team, Lebanon Valley College, Ursinus College,
probably in our area. Dramatic club, Virginia State College. We took down
the plays the Virginia happened you know the. It--Lincoln was my
intellectual emancipation. Central started it, but Lincoln completed my
intellectual [unintelligble]. Here I was open to a whole new world. You
know, here we had Black scholars coming and African-American scholars whom
I probably would not would not have crossed paths with them in a White
school. Sterling Brown, English poet. Billy Mays, President of Morehouse.
Mordecai Johnson, President of Howard University. I mean, it--it introduced
me to the to the Black intelligentsia. And this was an eye opening
experience for me because I was unaware.
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Patrick: I knew they were there, but I didn't--I never ran across them. I
always said that here is where I intellectually bloomed or blossomed. As I
said, my seminary, [??] seminary in New York City was my spiritual
emancipation because here I learned. Uh. That they didn't have Adam and Eve
as literal people [laughs] [chimes sound], mythology and all religions. And
I, you know, I learned I could. I could. I learned about that. Well, this
was Lincoln was a--then I became, the my first semester I was given a job
as a waiter in the dining room. Then I was charged as to be the secretary
for Joe Newton Hill, who was the Dean of the college. Professor of English,
head of the English department, Dean of the college. And and Joe was
meticulous in his use of the language. And so if I have had any skill in
the use of English,it certainly is due a large measure to the, to listening
to him and the other professors, but particularly he was a person whom I
admired greatly as a teacher for--and as a Black teacher you see there are
Black and White faculty members.The Black faculty member didn't get there
until I think '28, something like that--1928. School was founded in 1854,
but they wouldn't hire a Black faculty until the alumni finally forced them
to hire Black faculty sometime in the 20s that they finally found a Black
fighter.
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Patrick: But by the time I got there in '35, there were several Black
faculty which, you know, was made a difference. The Whites were good
Whites, you know, there are some good Whites and there are some Whites,
[laughs] but I can't say that that. Well, I remember Walter Livingston
Wright, who was the president telling--we had been protesting, we being the
students, about something in Oxford. Lincoln University is out in the,
well, it's four to five miles south of Philadelphia. Oxford City, the city
of Oxford, about two miles away. And there they had a segregated movie
house. Anyway, students along with the Dean Wilson, were protesting. And
Livingston Walters, who is our president, White president, saying now you
have to be careful, you know, so and so admonishing us, intelligent. We
think we're in trouble. You know what? But he's a White man, that kind of
and he was not being mean. He was really trying to be helpful. So when I
became president of the school board here 100 years later--one of the White
school board members said, Oh, I'll sit beside you and tell you when to put
the motion. Now I've been I've been moderator at Pittsburgh Presbytery.
I've been, I've been monitoring[??] my session. I've been president of
the--national president of our council.
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Patrick: And this White person who had not even finished college going to
tell me when to put the motion. And the person not being unkind was really
being a--and I couldn't say, you know, that's okay, I put the motion when I
damn please, of course. [laughs] But, but the point--the point I'm making
is it was this kind of of a benevolence that--that--that so many of the
White teachers on the campus--good folk but they knew what was best for us.
We didn't know. [laughs] Oh boy, oh, boy. Well, this is it's still wrong. I
said I'm president of the school board and I'm a man, I'm a [unintelligble]
you know, a college graduate. You[??] aren't going to tell me when to put a
motion. And that's not what that what that--when was I, when was I
president? I was president in '76, I think it was. I tell you, Michael,
I've had a number of good friends being kind to me like that. I'll be
damned. You know, I like to cuss you out, but I can't cuss you out because,
you know, you don't you're not conscious that you're insulting me, you're
not conscious of it. And I suppose that's normal. Now some fellows get
resentful and and I can't get resentful. You know, you sort of laugh at
that sort of thing. [laughs] Oh, boy. So. So.
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Snow: You would have graduated in 1939 when the US was preparing for war.
Did you see military service?
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Patrick: No. I was given the choice as a seminary student. I
was...allocated as a IV-D. Roman Numeral IV-D. As a matter of fact, my
draft board put me in I-A when they first sent me. So I wrote them back and
cited the section of the law which exempted me. Which meant I didn't have
to go to to the army, could not be drafted. And I didn't--I considered the
chaplaincy, but I didn't really want that either. So I--when I left, when
I--when I left Lincoln, I went into the pastorate at Chester, Pennsylvania
in '40--'42 of my--seminary's a three year course, as you know, three--it's
a three year. It's like the law school network. But I came out with the
master of Divinity degree. I was ordained by the New York Presbytery and
then went into the, the pastorate at Chester and I stayed there for, during
the 40s. And the same professor, president was--that lives right during
those years. So many kids were drafted that the student body, of course,
you know, went way down. And so he asked me to come out and teach, be a
lecturer in religion. So I taught the courses in religion six hours in
religion was required. And the man who was teaching it went into the
chaplaincy in the army. And I was [??] where I went out and I taught during
the 40s until, until '49. '43 while I was pastoring in Chester, it was--I
was called. I think the term was lecturer in religion, I think the term
that was used. 40s. Then I came to Pittsburgh in '51.
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Snow: In--well, in that year you led the--the integrating swimming pool
parties.
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Patrick: Yeah. Yeah.
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Snow: I was wondering how much tension in Bethesda Church there was about
that.
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Patrick: None. I went to my elders. [Unintelligble] said, I have this I
need to do. If you can [??] pool, go to it. [laughs] They weren't coming,
but no they were proud of me. I'm--that really I came in '51 and that
catapulted me into leadership around the city. You Whites didn't put it in
the newspapers. They didn't put me on television, but the Courier made me
known in the Black community, so I became. No, you see, I didn't come to be
a martyr. I mean, I didn't come to--to do that. And it was, as I've said
many times, it was accidental in a sense that I became the hero, as it
were, with Highland Park Pool. It happened like this, namely. In those
years, the Presbyterian Church national would have youth groups going
around the country, various places doing a little mission work. I was not
part of the group which came to Pittsburgh. I didn't--I had no part of the
planning. I don't know who they were. Anyway, I got a call from my office
downtown that they were having this youth group and did I want to put my
kids into the youth group. They were going to be stationed at East Liberty
Presbyterian Church. You know, Highland and Penn. And so I told my kids
about it. Teenagers. All I did on my own. And I didn't know the White kids
because these are out of town kids.
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Patrick: They're not. They're not. They just in town. So they went and, oh
they went to this Stasio [??] church on the Stasio [??]--it was an Italian
church there at Mayflower, Larimer Avenue, and they painted some walls and
did something in East Liberty Church that was, there was something in
Bethesda, yeah you should come and you can do some washing of some walls
and walls around. I don't need any paint, want painting. But there are some
walls that need washing. But again, I didn't know the White kids. They came
in and they spent a day or so washing walls and doing somewhere else, and
my kids would meet with them when they had the evening meetings. The kids
came to me on an evening. Must have been a Thursday. No, maybe Wednesday.
We suppose I was swimming on Saturday at Highland Park Pool. We can't swim
in that pool. Oh, the Whites kid didn't know they couldn't swim in the pool
and I didn't know them. And I didn't I didn't know who was in charge of
them. What do you mean you can't swim in the pool? We're not allowed.
Blacks not allowed. We have our pool on Southern Boulevard where the police
station is down. You know the fire--fire--fire training station is on
Southern Boulevard. On on what we call the Fifth Avenue and Snow:
Washington. Patrick: Washington Boulevard. Yeah. Southern Boulevard is the
Boulevard my wife lived on in New York when I was courting her.
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Patrick: Southern Boulevard. Maybe that's something about. Anyway, there's
a little pool there about as big as that tape recorder. On a Sunday or any
warm day, you could go there and it would be like your suit was in that
pool. We were we were crowded out. It was the inkwell Blacks. We were all
in that pool. That was our pool. I had been by the pool. I hadn't paid any
attention to the pool. Well, not really that conscious, but when my kids
told me that's our pool. And Highland Park is the White pool. No in
Philadelphia. I lived in south Philadelphia and the pool that I used wasn't
a Black pool, but it was a city pool. And I'm not a swimmer, I never had
swimming lessons. I can't. I can't swim. When I went into a pool, I always
went to the--well, I could stand up. I can't go in the deep water because
I'm not I'm not I'm not comfortable. But I go might dive off the board and
get some. Oh, we'll swim there, said I confidently. Well, I hadn't
been--you see, this is--this was would have been in what July of of '51 and
I just come in January so had not yet been intimidated by the mores, the
ethos of the--and particularly of this community, this is an Italian
community and they don't allow. So I said, yes, we'll swim.
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Snow: Excuse me one moment.
