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Karen Brock: --where are you from?
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William X. Brock: My name is William X. Brock. I'm originally from
Pittsburgh. First 23 years of my life I spent there. I've been here for two
years in Washington, Pennsylvania. My educational background is. High
school--I went to Peabody High School in Pittsburgh. I went to University
of Pittsburgh, where I was a political science major. 38 credits short of a
degree in political science. I had a few credits in business administration
at Robert Morris College. Have worked various part time jobs while I was in
grade school and high school to assist at home. When the first I guess, the
first credible job you could say I had was in Mellon Bank, where I started
out as a stockroom clerk and progressed to the position of mail unit
supervisor or check collection supervisor. Um--
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W. X. Brock: And, uh. I would go to the to the local beer distributor and
buy cans of pop, freeze it and put it on my wagon and run around and sell
it to those, to the construction workers. Made a little extra money like
that. And then I've always had enough initiative to go out and do some work
on the side because, uh, there have been periods of time when I was
unemployed and while I was unemployed, I always managed to make ends meet,
even through my, you know, marriage, uh, my adult life, I've put paneling
on people's walls and hung wallpapers and washed windows and whatever was
necessary to make ends meet when I couldn't find a job. But as I was saying
about my, uh, my work experience in the adult life, so to speak. Uh, while
I was in school, while I was a full time student at the University of
Pittsburgh, I worked at Mellon Bank. Then we had an altercation at the
bank. I was terminated from there. And we did--I filed a complaint against
them with the Pittsburgh Human Relations Commission. And it was it was
ruled in my favor that they had terminated me unjustly. And this was the
first--first sensitivity I had begin--I'd say real sensitivity. I had--I
had, uh, developed towards racial problems, but I hadn't I hadn't
experienced them, you know, as a child, at least knowingly anyway, I
probably experienced them, but I didn't know, you know.
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W. X. Brock: But then when I became conscious of it, it was this, this
incident with Mellon Bank where a supervisor and I had an altercation and I
was terminated. But it was--it was unfair and it was ruled that way by the
by the system that had been established by the city of Pittsburgh. And at
that point, I, uh, I went to work at the YMCA outreach program, which was
the then called the Respect Incorporated program. We worked with youth. In
the community, underprivileged youth, you know, hard core, so to speak, in
the Hill district, uh, probably one of the hard core areas that, that
that's a term that they use for that area. K. Brock: So we, uh, how old
were you when you started that job? W. X. Brock: I was about I guess I
couldn't have been any more than 17 or 18--no, I say 19 or 20. Um, and
probably one of the reasons that I had, uh, so,so many early experiences
because I went to work at Mellon Bank when I think I was about 17 and I
graduated from high school in three years, instead of four years. I had, I
had done, um, pretty well in school and so they, they let me graduate a
year ahead of time.
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K. Brock: You graduated from Peabody, but where actually is that. What
neighborhood is that?
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W. X. Brock: That's in the East Liberty section of Pittsburgh. At that
time it was mostly a White school, but now it's about a mixed balance of,
you know, of, uh, uh, student population. I was in school, I was a student,
one of the student council--members of student council, and I was the class
president. And I think in my junior year and I had achieved a lot of, uh,
what they, they call them meritorious awards and whatnot for scholastic
and, and academic excellence as well as social activities in school. I was
involved in everything in school, a lot of a lot of things in school. And
it's the same thing that happened in college. I joined the fraternity Kappa
Alpha Psi fraternity, and, um, we traveled extensively, you know, as
fraternity brothers around the country. But anyway, I was talking about my
my work experiences, and I'll go back to the, to the fraternal
organizations and that kind of social life when I, when I sort of paint a
profile of where I am employment wise. K. Brock: Okay. W. X. Brock: Okay.
Um. I, uh, I went to work with Respect, Inc., and I taught some basic
Swahili classes, some Black history. And, you know, I chaperoned a lot of
the dances that they had at only 19 or 20. But it was because I was able to
hide my age. And a lot of the kids were close to my age, but I was able to
hide it by presenting them, you know, say more dignified image, so to
speak.
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W. X. Brock: And we had a pretty good relationship there. And while I was
there, some representatives, some Chicano by the name of--no,Puerto
Rican--by the name of Willy Vasquez, came from New York to Respect, Inc. to
talk with us about becoming a part--a member group in their, um, in their
circulation. They are an organization of organizations, community
organizations around the country that Chicano Mexican-Americans, Puerto
Ricans, Blacks, poor Whites and whatever. And their purpose is to see to it
that all groups are aware of what their possibilities and potentials are in
the area that they're in. They're like a community resource bank only
they're nationwide. I talked to Willy Vasquez and he finally he liked what
I had to say and how, you know, what kind of image I had. At that time, I
was in the militant movement pretty much. I had Afro, dashiki, that kind of
thing. We were really, you know, almost hated the idea of Caucasian flesh,
period by that time. Because I said, as I had um, uh, experienced that
difficulty with, with Mellon Bank. And then from then on, it was a
progressive thing. And I think I even begin to look for problems that
existed in the White community. So I had turned into totally a militant, so
to speak, you know, problems.
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K. Brock: Problems that exist in the White community, you mean the White
and Black. W. X. Brock: Yes. Mhm.
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W. X. Brock: And and the White community, per se, the power structure. I
you know, I just didn't agree with the way that, you know, things were
going in the in the system, so to speak, you know, And I just didn't--I
thought that this was a major problem with with Caucasians in general. I
just you know, my my thought was against that idea of, you know, in
interracial relationships and and everything. I severed that because I know
when I was in high school, um, I had since I went to a almost all White
school, you know, I had been involved with a lot of White girls and I had a
lot of friends, White male friends as well. And, you know, everything was
sort of, uh, like rosy, so to speak, until I, you know, grew a little older
and could see a little bit more of what was going on in the community. And
and then from there, I, uh. I, uh, was elected regional director of Youth
Organizations United at the same time that I was serving as the Community
Worker for Respect, Inc.. Okay. So as regional director, I got a chance to
fly around the country with them and, and go to different places and see
the problems of, of, uh, minorities in general. And, uh, we went to Mason
City, Iowa, Washington, DC, New York, Philadelphia. We were all up and down
the East Coast. We went to Boston, Hartford, Connecticut.
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W. X. Brock: We were everywhere. And give me a chance to learn a lot
because as you know, probably one of the most important things to a
person's intellectual growth is travel. And so as I traveled, I got a
chance to learn a lot from that. But, uh, I got married and Youth
Organizations United wasn't paying enough for me to--because I only was
paid on a per diem basis then. They paid me $25 a day when I traveled, but
when I didn't travel, I wasn't paid. Uh, and Respect, Inc. was only a part
time job. It was a job that I did after school because I remember I said I
was still in school then, so I, uh, I had to go to work and take a full
time job. I went to Community Action Pittsburgh in the daycare division,
and I served as the procurement officer for a few months, about eight
months. I was responsible for purchasing equipment and supplies for 21
daycare centers around in the community and in the Pittsburgh area. And I
had to negotiate contracts with contractors who were going to upgrade our
facilities, and I had to deal with local, state and federal representatives
to see to it that our that our centers met, the needs are met, the
standards that had to be met according to these laws. And so I got a pretty
good deal of public relations work from there.
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K. Brock: When you worked there, did you still go to school or?
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W. X. Brock: Well, I, I was separating from school then because I, as I
said, my disillusionment with the with the system, so to speak, uh, had
grown to the point then where I just I was against education, I was against
religion. I was in fact, I was an atheist at that time. Um, well, I thought
I was an atheist anyway. I was an atheist. I was against religion, I was
against, uh, education. I was against, you know, just about everything that
the system had to offer, except I recognized I had to work, you know, in
order to make my family, uh, you know, substantial. Okay. You know, in
other words, to provide the needs, the basic needs of my family. So I, uh,
went to work, and I tried to get with as many, uh, a Black group as I could
to work, you know, And Community Action had at that time was directed
mostly by Blacks. And I recognized the money was coming from the federal
government, but it was as close to what I had thought was the epitome of of
of what I had the idea I had in my mind about Black people moving to to
develop things for themselves and do something, you know, constructive on
their own. And about that time, I was influenced by the teachings of the
Honorable Elijah Muhammad. I had been frequenting the restaurant, the
Muslim restaurant in the Pittsburgh area just about every day because I,
uh, it had good food, you know, And and I went out there and we'd sit
around and talk all the time. I never would go in the temple because I had
heard so many adverse things about the Nation. I had heard that they make
you give up all your money. They make the women walk behind you, that they
kill this guy and they kill that guy. And I had heard a lot of negative
things, but the food was good. So I'd go to the restaurant and eat. So--
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K. Brock: Where was the restaurant?
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W. X. Brock: The restaurant is in the Homewood section of Pittsburgh. K.
Brock: In Homewood. W. X. Brock: Yes.
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K. Brock: Did you work in that area. Or did you just--
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W. X. Brock: Well, I went out there.
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K. Brock: Was that an area of your work or did you just--
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W. X. Brock: Basically I lived in the East Liberty section, which is about
two miles away from the restaurant. And I lived there. I had I had left
home. I left home when I was about 17, 16 or 17. One of the two.
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K. Brock: Is this after you graduated from high school?
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W. X. Brock: Yes. 17. That's right. I would be 17 because I left home. And
then we lived in an apartment and we didn't have any place to cook or eat
unless we, you know, cooked and ate ourselves. K. Brock: Who's "we?" W. X.
Brock: I had a roommate. I had some, you know, some at, at one time it was
with fraternity brothers and another time with friends, whatnot.
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K. Brock: Okay. Okay. I was wondering who you were saying-- W. X. Brock:
"We"--right. K. Brock: Some family or whether it was.
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W. X. Brock: No, no, I just, you know-- K. Brock: Or married or whatever.
W. X. Brock: No. So we went and I used to--I was influenced by the
teachings of Islam pretty much. And I liked the idea of doing something for
self. I heard a lot of negative talk, but I heard. But I saw positive. And
what you see has a tendency to affect you more than what you hear, you
know? So I saw respect. I saw dignity. I saw businesses all over the place.
They had a barber shop, a bakery, a restaurant, a fish market, a fast food
sandwich place, a school. They had their own school system. And then
nationwide, they had a lot of progress established throughout the nation.
And I had been studying it and watching this, you know, But by the same on
the same token, I had been hearing a lot of negative talk, but every time I
talked to them, they always had had a discussion that seemed superior to
any conversation that I had heard. I mean, it seemed intellectually
appealing to me, you know, that that they were able to to answer the kind
of questions that I had had and they empathized with the kind of thoughts
that I had had, uh, uh, all along. K. Brock: About when was this. W. X.
Brock: This was in between 71 and 72, 71. Okay. And about that time, uh,
Community Action in Pittsburgh was under the gun from the US Department of
Health, Education and Welfare, especially the daycare division, because
funds were being misappropriated and all that sort of thing, by the big
wheel.
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W. X. Brock: And so I had to make a move to find more stable employment
even than that. So I was lucky enough to run up on a job at the
Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission, the governor's office. And I
started out as a field investigator there. And this was another job that,
although I disagreed with, with integration and I disagreed with with some
of the White system, law, and etcetera, educational ideas, I did see the
real potential in aiding people to do what they wanted to do, and that's
what I was after. I didn't want to see a person turned down for living in
the neighborhood just because of the color of his skin. And I didn't want
to see a person not be able to sit down in a restaurant and have a dinner
just because of the color of his skin. And I didn't want to see a person
unable to keep get or keep a job or get in school or stay in school
strictly because of the color of his skin. And so I was glad I was able to
get that job with the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission. I did that
job to my best ability. And within a matter of about 6 or 8 months, my
salary was increased in state government, which is almost unheard of from
$7,200 to almost $1,000 a month because of the the kind of excellence that
I was--I was demonstrating on that job.
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W. X. Brock: And it was comments were made that I was one of the best--one
of the top ten negotiators in in the housing conciliation complaints in the
country. And this was made on local level. This was made by state
representatives that that would know, I'm sure. So because my primary my
primary responsibility in the in the Human Relations Commission was housing
conciliation whenever the realtors were found in violation of
discrimination laws and acts, then it was my job to get them to conciliate
and to come into compliance with the law. And I had a way of doing that.
And but seeing that with my militant background or militant idea that I
would be harsh and brash towards them, but I wasn't. And I was able to get
them to see the logic in, in, in, in, uh, treating everyone fair regardless
of the color of his skin. And I was also and, and by using the technique of
making them feel that it was their idea all along, I was able to conciliate
more housing complaints than any other investigator in the in the Human
Relations Commission at that time. I don't know what they're doing now, but
I do know that at that time I was able to conciliate. K. Brock: How long
were you with them? W. X. Brock: I was with them about two years. K. Brock:
About two years. W. X. Brock: Just about two years, yeah.
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K. Brock: Okay. Now, in this conciliation, you said you mentioned that
because you're a former militant background. But at that time, you
already--
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W. X. Brock: Yeah, I was in the Nation of Islam. Yes.
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K. Brock: And did you feel that that also influenced how you were able to
help? Well, yes.
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W. X. Brock: Yes. I think a lot of times the way that you can the way you
impress people is your appearance. And as you may know, the Nation of Islam
and especially the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, stressed that that his
followers should try to be clean as possible and present a good image. We
we were told that the first impression of a person is always sight, you
know. So we wore suits, white shirts, and ties just about all the time
and--and a militant in a white shirt and a tie can do a whole lot more than
a militant in a dashiki and a big afro, you know. So that's
what--the--the--the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's teachings helped me to be
more successful in my work world in that essence. And and that and that
influence is still on me. And I don't deny that I'm still influenced by
that. I wouldn't think of wearing anything else but a suit to work, you
know, or just about anywhere, even wear it when I go shopping or whatever,
because we want to gain the acceptability of the community. And one of the
a broad cross-section of the community is more apt to be captured by a
person with a suit on than one in any other garb. I know when I used to
ride a motorcycle, if I went up to a person with a motorcycle, no matter if
I was a businessman, a lawyer or a doctor or whatever, a certain
stereotypical picture or image was in their mind of a guy with a
motorcycle, you know.
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W. X. Brock: If I would have wore blue jeans and whatever else I had a
certain image, I would have reached a certain population of the people. But
a man who wears a suit and a tie is he gets a broader cross-section of the
community. He can go to the drunk on the corner and get some respect. He
can also go into the top of the Empire State Building, the guy who sits up
there in a big plus chair and get some respect. So we wear the suits to get
you know, to get the the general consensus of the population that at least
give us the attention, attention to put in their mind what we have on our
minds, you see. So I did that and it helped me on that job. But still, the
idea of doing something for self and integration was eating me up because I
did not believe in, in, in integration per se. And I still don't believe in
integration per se. In other words, the idea that a Black man should run
out and chase a White woman down the street or chase her down the street in
his mind when just 50 years ago, if he would have thought ill about that
White woman, he would be killed. You know, he would be castrated. The same
one who all she had to do was just scream, you know, or or imply that a
Black man had looked at her wrong. He would be lynched, you know, or he
would be tarred and feathered.
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K. Brock: But you said 50 years ago, don't you think that still exists? W.
X. Brock: It may. It may.
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W. X. Brock: That's true. It it probably does. But that idea had me--I was
totally opposed to that, okay. And although I had been involved a whole lot
with the opposite sex--White women, I just you know, I--as I was coming up,
that was, you know, one of the that was just a every day thing until I
learned and became, you know, developed in that in that area. And let's not
stop it there because it goes it develops even further now. But at that
time, I missed the point of my thinking. I also didn't believe in the idea
of forcing a person to make me go to school or making having to force a
person to allow me to go to school with him and having to force a person to
allow me to sit down in a restaurant next to him or live in his
neighborhood, I just couldn't see that. I said, if Black people aren't
wanted in a neighborhood, they shouldn't want to be in that neighborhood. I
want to see Black people do something for themselves. I didn't think that,
um, uh, [??] singing We Shall Overcome or carrying big signs around in
front of the A&P--asking A&P to hire more Blacks was the right idea. I
thought the right idea was for Blacks to pool their resources and build
their own A&P, you know? So this is the this was the the--the I had a
conflict with the Human Relations Commission in my mind while I was working
because I was advocating that Whites shouldn't treat Blacks unfairly in the
Commission. But I also had in my mind that Blacks should be uniting to do
something for themselves. Okay. So there was a big conflict developing.
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K. Brock: Can both of [??] work together?
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W. X. Brock: Um, at that time I didn't see it or I couldn't see it. So
eventually I terminated. I quit and went into business for myself. I bought
a truck. The Honorable Master Elijah Muhammad was able to negotiate a
contract with the government of Peru to import literally hundreds of
thousands of metric tons of fish to be sold and distributed retail and
wholesale in the streets of America by his followers. Because by this time,
the Nation of Islam in the last--in the last ten years had acquired so much
material wealth. It was--it was baffling to the world community. We owned
Gary, Indiana Airport. We were negotiating to buy Tuskegee University. We
had purchased and paid cash for a jet airplane. We were we had stores and
markets all around America from border from from border to Gulf and coast
to coast. Okay. So much wealth had been established in, you know, in the
Nation of Islam. Although debt was also incurred, the Nation of Islam was
moving along in the financial world so much until it was almost
unbelievable. Okay. And so eventually we were able to, like I say, we were
able to land this contract. So I quit the job, went out and bought myself a
truck and and sold fish door to door on the streets. K. Brock: When did you
start doing that? W. X. Brock: Uh, that was--was approximately 18 months
ago. Yeah. K. Brock: 74, 75. W. X. Brock: Yeah, right, right. Okay. Yeah,
about 74. And was this.
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K. Brock: And was this--was this still in the city of Pittsburgh? W. X.
Brock: Yeah.
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W. X. Brock: Oh, but in the meantime, I had been carrying newspapers in
the Washington community. Washington, Pennsylvania. This was the area that
I had been assigned to carry my newspaper. Okay. K. Brock: Newspapers for?
W. X. Brock: The Muhammad Speaks newspaper. The Nation of Islam has a [K.
Brock speaking, unintelligible] right, has a right, has a has a
publication, and we call it at that time we call it The Muhammad Speaks.
And I had developed such a rapport in the community. The police officers
all knew me. The--the--local community leaders. And then and then even the
community, just the general, regular, everyday people in the community had
had known come, come to know me so well for the 3 or 4 years I had been
coming out here with my Muhammad Speaks newspapers until it was it was easy
for me to be successful with at selling fish in the community. So I brought
I brought a bought a truck and brought it out here and sold fish.
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K. Brock: And was this basically in the Black community in Washington?
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W. X. Brock: Yes. Yes. Basically that's where I sold my fish at. Then
we--we encountered problems with the government of Peru because they were
having civil--civil disorders, you know, And they were, uh, I think the
government was taken over by the army, the military and all exports were,
were cut off. So that virtually killed me economically. What I had to do
then was begin to seek employment again, um, in the work world. And it was
a real conflict with me because I was disappointed. I wanted to do
something for myself. That was my biggest concern. And, um, I,uh. I began
to look for work and I used my truck because occasionally we would get a
trickle of fish in here and a trickle of fish in there, and I would sell it
once in a while. But in the meantime, I, you know, while I was selling it,
I was all in Wheeling, West Virginia, and parts of Ohio and all over
Western Pennsylvania. Marianna, Clarksville. K. Brock: This is selling
fish? W. X. Brock: Mhm. You're right. Uh huh, uh huh. And I had established
a good customer relationship with everybody. So--
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K. Brock: Why did you stay with the Black community in that respect?
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W. X. Brock: Because at the time, still my main concern was the Black
community. That was that was my main concern. I used that as a method to
get to the people because I was also having meetings in my home. I was
bringing people into my house and going into their houses-- K. Brock: Still
living in Pittsburgh? W. X. Brock--all over Western Pennsylvania. No, I
moved into Washington about two years ago and this was a little bit before
the time we got the fish trucks. Or was it after? I don't know. It was
right about in the same area of time. Okay.
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K. Brock: Okay. That's what I was trying to figure out, you know, whether
you came here?
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W. X. Brock: Yeah, I moved out here and we started having meetings in the
home to get the people. Not so much to get people involved, so to speak,
but to get them aware and to destroy some of the myths that had been
established about what the Nation of Islam represented, what we stood for.
So I was in West Virginia, Ohio, and all over Western Pennsylvania
propagating the faith of Islam, so to speak. All right. And and, uh,
eventually I was able to locate this job. Luckily, I came in here, and. And
at the time it was Mr. John Pigenelle and Mr. Rumbaugh--John Rumbaugh
talked to me about about my background and they they admired and respected
my my candidness and the kind of experience that I had had. And they felt I
could do a service to the to the county, to the Manpower program if they
could get me on here. So I accepted this position as an administrative
assistant, an affirmative action officer. And then when. Mr Rumbaugh--
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K. Brock: That's in the Manpower, that's what your position was at that
point? W. X. Brock: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. K. Brock: And that has since changed.
W. X. Brock: Uh huh.
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W. X. Brock: When Mr. Rumbaugh terminated, he was under some duress and
and I was the obvious person to take his position as public service
employment coordinator. K. Brock: And that's the position that-- W. X.
Brock: I now hold. Yes. And I'm responsible for the interviewing and
hiring, keeping records on and terminating of about 300 jobs. And it's a
rewarding and enjoyable position because of the growth and development of
the teachings of Islam, especially some of the growth and development that
I'm referring to is the change from strictly flesh colored stigmatism of
of, of right and wrong, you know, but this was the point that we weren't
able to attain in the beginning for obvious reasons, and I'll probably
explain that at a later time. But now that that that gives you a picture of
my employment history, I'm now working and I'm satisfied with the job. And
in fact, there's a lot of even opportunities for advancement here.
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K. Brock: How long have you been here?
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W. X. Brock: I've only been here six months. K. Brock: Been here six
months. W. X. Brock: And as far as education is concerned, while I was in
school from grade school all the way up, I gave you a picture of my
employment history. So I think we have a little more time to give you a
little picture of my education. And then the social and religious
background is where we're going to have to spend a lot of time talking, I
guess. K. Brock: Okay. W. X. Brock: But and your other questions that you
have on there, I think they lead more in the social area. Okay
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K. Brock: Okay. Right. You've covered [???] of the questions.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:29:21.000
W. X. Brock: All right. The the in grade school, I went to Fort Pitt grade
school. And while in grade school, I was active, I was in a lot of school
plays. I was in the choir. You know, in other words, the general all around
school student and I received the most awards for academic and
extracurricular activities that the school had ever given out to that time.
I don't know what they've given out now, but I do know at that time I won
13 awards in one year. Was was the most they had ever given out. And then
my senior year, well we call it the senior year, but my my um, graduation
from the high school. Okay. That year I, I had the American let's see, how
did they call it? The Sons and Sons of the American Revolution Award for
Academic Excellence. I had perfect attendance, class play. I was safety
patrol.
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:24.000
K. Brock: [unintelligible] you mentioned earlier that you graduated in two
years. How did you--
00:29:24.000 --> 00:31:24.000
W. X. Brock: Well, I'm talking about in grade school now. K. Brock: Oh,
this is in grade school. W. X. Brock: Yeah, in grade school. All right. And
then from grade school, when I got into high school, I was immediately
elected the class president of the ninth grade. We are--we graduated in I
don't know how it is here, but in Pittsburgh, you go from 1 to 8 and then
from 9 through 12--nine, ten, 11, 12, okay. And then the ninth grade, I was
immediately elected class president because of well, I just--I guess it's
charisma. I'm not trying to brag, but I don't know what it is, but I guess
that's what it is. And I was class president and, and, uh, a lot of friends
and, and it was a whole new world for me, so to speak. And then I. I, uh,
didn't achieve as much as I did in grade school because the fun was got to
me, you know, we sort of enjoyed high school. I had, I got my first car and
etcetera at that time and so I did all right. But then even with not doing
as good as I could do, I was able to, um, to carry enough credits in
school. And they saw that I had enough, you know, academically on the ball
that I could carry enough credits to, uh, to shorten my term in high school
from four years to three years. So I never, uh, actually experienced a
sophomore year. I went from ninth to what, what we said was in between
sophomore and junior. Okay. [laughs] Right, right. Okay. And, um, uh, and
even in that, at that I was in class plays and whatnot. We didn't have many
high school fraternities and whatnot kind of thing. So in my senior year,
nobody believed it. They said, you're not graduating this year. But finally
it was posted that I would graduate. I think I was one of only three who
ever had done that, you know, graduated in three years from a four year
high school at the time. Now, now, I don't know what they did then.
00:31:24.000 --> 00:32:24.000
So then you were what, like--
